Conversion, Evangelists and Hindutva
Posted by JoSep 24
There is so much talk in the online space about religious conversion. There are people asking for an outright ban on conversions. Another set of people justify the crimes commited by the extremist outfits like Bajrang Dal for they are angry about conversions in general. Some people say “Christians deserved it” or the Bajrang Dal attacks were plain retaliation. At this point, I would like to share my thoughts on religious conversion again and about the people who benefit out of it.
- Any religious conversion that is either by force or by offering monetary benefits should be banned by the law. This should include re-conversions as well (the VHP is allegedly re-converting people by making better offers than their Christian counterparts).
- Any conversion by one’s own conviction and will should be allowed. We are talking about basic human rights here.
- Any religion, including Christianity, should be allowed to preach their religion and their form of spirituality (all religions do the religious/spiritual discourses) but in the process, no one should be allowed to abuse the other religions and their Gods to establish supremacy.
The current anti-Conversion laws in some states of India should consider the above mentioned and cannot outrightly ban conversion. And if anybody breaks the law, it is the duty of the legal system in India to handle the offenders by the means of law, and that duty is not left to the groups like VHP or Bajrang Dal to manhandle people, kill them, burn their houses, churches etc. That is the law of jungle and imagine if every community reacted this way.
The people who benefit from the conversion business are of two types. The evangelical Christian missionaries and the Hindutva brigade aka Sangh Parivar.
The Missionary Agenda
Spreading the word of God is what Jesus asked his followers. Jesus asked to spread His message, not money. But there is a wide-spread Evangelical network that works against the principles of Jesus Christ. For them, it is just a matter of getting more and more people into their fold. For this, they are ready to spend any amount of money. Their offers are so tempting that many people in India get converted to have monetary benefits. Four-five people join a Church and then separate themselves from it, forms a new Church, converts people and widen the strength of their Church, sends the group photos of their Church members to their western benefactors, gets more money etc etc. This has become a business of religion. Jesus Christ has no place in this whole business. Such conversion machines have to be stopped by the law.
The Hindutva Agenda
What the Hindutva brigade want is power over the society. Just like the missionaries want a Christianized world, the Hindutva vaadis want a Hindu Rashtra and for that they need an India cleansed off Muslims and Christians. Gujarat, Karnataka and Orissa are just test phases. The real and the biggest execution is yet to come and we have to wait for it until the BJP gets the majority in center.
Hindutva brigade selectively target Christians over the conversion issue. They easily ignore the mass conversions to Budhism every year. They do not make any hue and cry over it because it will dig up the dung of Casteism in their own yard. Also they do not draw any distinction between the Evangelical Christians and the rest of Indian Christians. They do not want to do so, because their concept of Hindu Rashtra is based on the ethnic cleansing of Christians and Muslims in India.
Those who support both these types should think about it again. Those who support the violence induced by Sangh Parivar as a form of ‘reaction’ or ‘retaliation’ should think about it again too. Imagine if everybody retaliated by taking law in hands.
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24 comments
Comment by Priyank on September 24, 2008 at 8:17 am
“Ethnic cleansing” is a big word my friend. It would be helpful if you find something to back up your claims.
Comment by Jo on September 24, 2008 at 10:28 am
I know I used a “harsh word”.
But that is to warn people about the dangers of Hindutva. Tomorrow they could mobilize people and burn my house or beat me up, accusing me of converting people (just because I am also a Christian). Their followers who are not aware of their political agenda would easily take the bait and do it.
Comment by Jo on September 24, 2008 at 10:36 am
And if you want proof for the hatred that Hindutva leaders spread, and asking their followers to send Muslims to Pakistan, send Christians to Italy etc – there is enough solid video and written proof. Just search in You Tube with the following keywords – Rakesh Sharma, Final Solution, Making of a Muslim Terrorist.
Comment by Sally on September 24, 2008 at 11:38 am
Hey Jo.. what do you have to say about the killing of 84-year-old swami Laxmananand?? dont u think that was hushed up by the media in the light of the new attcks on the christians??
Comment by Sally on September 24, 2008 at 11:49 am
i dont mean to fight with you Jo, but i personally think that there would be no trouble between Hindus and Christians, who are mostly a peaceful community living in harmony with Hindus for centuries, but for the aggressive campaign to “harvest souls”, meaning, convert poor Hindus. It is the influx of massive funds, mainly from Europe, to further a renewed evangelical offensive in India that is the cause of mounting tensions between Hindus and Christians in many parts of India.
Comment by Sally on September 24, 2008 at 11:51 am
I have read that dispensing with the usual paraphernalia of baptism, some priests apparently preside over mass conversions whereby those willing to change their religion need only to take a dip in the village pond to expiate their past sins. New converts in villages become particularly aggressive towards their erstwhile community and the resulting social cleavage eventually spills over into violence. This is probably the strongest argument for enacting watertight anti-conversion legislation.
Comment by Mohammed on September 24, 2008 at 6:55 pm
“Ethnic cleansing” ?
Oh sure , it is definitely not happening in Gujrat.
Comment by Jo on September 24, 2008 at 8:41 pm
You ask, what do you have to say about the killing of 84-year-old swami Laxmananand??
Let me ask you a similar question before I answer yours. What do you have to say about the killings and burning and other terrorising activities of Bajrang Dal and VHP in Orissa and Karnataka? Are those killings justified because of the murder of Lakhanananda?
I know that before you answer this question, you would find the next convenient reasoning to justify the killing of Christians by saying that the Christians murdered the Swami. Now, please go through this link before you put it up here so that we both can save ourselves sometime:
Maoists claim they killed fascist VHP leader in Orissa
I know what is you’re going to say next. That the media is biased towards Hindus. But as I am aware that is very typical of all Sangh Parivar supporters, I would pass that on.
(They do not even go by the simple logic to think how come the WHOLE media in a country can be specifically biased).
As for your second comment – I had mentioned in this post itself about how some of the Evangelical churches are causing tension. I have made it clear in this post itself. I guess you didn’t bother to read that. And they are not the sole responsible party to create trouble between Christians and Hindus. The Sangh Parivar which is misusing the Hindu sentiments and mobilize them against Christians are also responsible for the communal tension. And I would say that theirs is more dangerous, because their fight is in the violent manner.
Talking about the funds, I would suggest that you do some news reading. Just a couple of years back Mata Amrutanandamayi Mutt was in the first place to receive the most foreign funds in Kerala and that report came in the pro-BJP magazine, India Today. The Christian church came second. What do you have to say about that?
You say, New converts in villages become particularly aggressive towards their erstwhile community and the resulting social cleavage eventually spills over into violence. This is probably the strongest argument for enacting watertight anti-conversion legislation.
That is a mere excuse for framing Christians. How does a change of faith make a person ‘particularly aggressive‘ all in a sudden? Do you have any solid proof or study report (apart from what you read in the RSS mouthpiece ‘Organizer’ or the VHP website ‘Haindava Keralam’) to back your claim? You have to dig a bit deeper into the issue here, Sally. And that would only show the pile of junk in your own yard. Just think about what makes so many converts in India. The evangelical missionaries bank upon two weaknesses of India – Poverty and Casteism. If you had spent half of your time thinking about how to curb Cateism there would be lesser number of religious conversions in India. People who have a problem with Christian conversion seems to be having no issue with Buddhist conversions (thousands of people convery to Budhism on Ambedkar janamdin). Why? Digging into the reasons of those conversions would only make you point the finger to yourself.
To conclude, I did not say all the above to justify the evangelical Christians. That is not what I intend to do here. Like I have explained in this post, I am totally aware of their agenda. But when you see evil only on one side and use that to justify the evil on the other side, there I have a problem.
Oh, and about the murder of Swami, I do condem his killing as I do not believe in violent actions. And I have noticed that the Hindutva brigade making a martyr out of him. But the news reports itself say that the Swami was not that good soul as VHP projects him these days. I will quote the major points from the news reports here for your convenience:
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=Ne190108next_stop.asp
PS: About the other commenter, I think it is directed at me as he has posted 3 comments each in every blog post of mine saying that I am a “Down_breed of Arab”. Actually I am enjoynig the whole thing, that Hindutva vaadis call me pseudo-secularist, Christian fundamentalists call me “Down_breed of Arab”. Such is fun.
Comment by Sally on September 25, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Well, i did not mean to start a fight with you Jo regarding casteism and religion.. Its just that I feel that the whole concept of religion itself is just an excuse for people to fight against each other.. and regarding the killings, well i guess that the people doing the conversions had it coming.. and dont think that i am telling this from a BJP or RSS view point.. I would hav said the same if Hindu’s had gone about converting christians and the christians community retaliated by attacking the Hindu’s doing the conversions.. On the whole, i think the whole system of converting a person from one religion to another is stupid.. It does not matter whatever religon you are, as long as you belong to the same species of HomoSapien..All of the religions have their own pro’s and con’s and if we start arguing on that, the fight will never end..
PS: and i did not mean to justify the killing of Lakhanananda Saraswati.. I dont trust any swamiji or holy person for that matter.. but what i wanted to convey but failed to do so was the fact that whenever a hindu retaliates against anythin done against their community, it becomes communal violence and the media gives it a lot of coverage… maybe if this whole violence thing had not taken place, nobody would have even come to know of the conversions going on in remote places..
Comment by Jo on September 25, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I also did not mean to fight Sally, but I had to respond. Or else people who read your comments alone would be misguided. Usually I do not bother to publish comments from the staunch Sangh supporters nor do I bother to respond to them. The reason is quite simple. From the 3+ years of my blogging experience, I have learnt that there is no point in debating with them. It would be a total waste of time and energy (same with the evangelical Christians or NDF supporting Muslims as well). But this comment was from you, hence I had to publish and respond to you.
Some of the educated supporters of Sangh Parivar use new tactics these days. They project themselves as atheists or agnostic. They know that it would give them a better acceptance. And then they would slowly push their real agenda. In all your comments to this post, you have not even once condemned the killings of Christians. You were infact supporting the murderers when you merely said that “they had it coming“. Were all those who have been attacked were actively converting people? And, oh yes, I’ve read your blog post that gives a clean chit to Sangh Parivar. There you said “Conversions-related violence has been on the increase in many States, including Orissa, Arunachal Pradesh, Gujarat and Chhattisgarh“. Have you noticed that these states are either ruled by BJP or the ruling party is backed by BJP (like in Orissa)? How come Karnatake came in to this list now, just after 100 days since BJP got in to power? Was that plain “Hindu” retaliation? If so, are those only states where Hindus live in? Think about it before you worry about “secular brigade blaming Sangh Parivar”.
If you truly believed that the whole concept of religion itself is just an excuse for people to fight against each other, you would have blamed the Sangh parivar along with evangelists. But you did not do so. Think about where you stand.
You say i think the whole system of converting a person from one religion to another is stupid. In fact, I also think the same. But that is “your” viewpoint and “mine”. There would be people sharing the same point and there would be people who believe othertwise. So asking others to follow “your” or “my” view point would be the most stupid thing. If a person wants to convert to another religion, or if he finds the teachings of another religion more beautiful, he/she should have the right to do so. Not just from Hinduism to Christianity or Christianity to Hinduism (just do a search in Wiki on religious conversion and you can see so many Christians converted to Hinduism including most popular celebrities of the world), but from any religion to another religion.
I know the reasons are not spiritual always. I have a couple of Hindu friends who married Christian women and converted them to Hinduism at Araya Samaj offices just before the marriage. I have Christian friends who converted their Hindu lovers to Christianity as well. The reason here is an individual’s convenience. So the point that I am trying to make is everyone should have the freedom to choose/change any religion that he/she wants as long as it is not for the monetary benefits. That is why I have clearly mentioned in this post that I oppose conversions done by force, by offering material benefits, or by abusing another religion and their form of God. These constraints should be good enough to sustain communal harmony while keeping the individual’s rights.
Did you know that the Malayalam poet Balachandran Chullikkad was converted to Budhism just to prove that he was at his freewill to choose the religion of his choice? That was happened when some anti-conversion talk came up in the media years back.
I have clearly made my stand on conversion here. And that did not support any evengelists or converting machines. But you have not yet stepped out from your Sangh shoes yet you claim you are atheistic/agnostic. Just make yourself clear about where you stand which could save both of us some time and energy.
Comment by Sally on September 25, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Hey Jo.. u got me wrong all over again.. First let me get one thing straight.. I am not an ATHEIST.. I have never claimed to be an atheist also.. the only atheist in our house is my mother… Both me and my sister visit temples and churches regularly and wud have even visited mosques, but unfortunately we are not allowed in there.. and regarding the supportin of killings, there too you got me wrong.. I am a total anti-violence person, be it against animals or humans.. I never support any form of violence.. But there is one thing that i hate and that is conversion, be it for monetary or for any purpose.. On this issue, i support the hindu’s more because they are most of the time on the other end of the conversion chart.. we rarely hear of a christian getting converted to a hindu or a muslim becoming a hindu.. If that is the case, i would have surely argued against that and written against t Sangh Parivar, BJP, or any other party that was doing it.. Also, it was the Pope himself who stated that he wanted to increase the number of his believers in Asia.. It is such comments that make people like me to come forward and argue on things that i dont even give a second thought to in my daily life..
I totally pity the poor christians who had to die in Karnataka because of the work done by the conversion hungry Evangalists.. I am also totally against the hindu fanatics who go about killing for no reason at all.. but even a totally calm and passive dog is apt to bite someone if it is proved too much and i just wanted to say that provocation on the part of the Evangalists resulted in what happened..
You may reply to this again with a long argument that I have not gotten your point and that i am speaking like a Sangh Parivar mouthpiece.. but in any case i know where i stand and what my views are.. maybe i am not able to express it in such a linguistic talent and in the calm way that you do it jo.. i get a little excited by some comments and i start blasting away.. sorry..
Comment by Sally on September 25, 2008 at 8:32 pm
* oops the word i meant was ” even a calm and passive dog is apt to bite if it is provoked too much”…
PS: now dont tell me that i called the Sangh Parivar as a meek, calm, passive dog.. I did not mean them.. i meant the hindu’s in general..
Comment by Sally on September 25, 2008 at 9:33 pm
and one more thing Jo.. you asked me a particular question… “”You were infact supporting the murderers when you merely said that “they had it coming“. Were all those who have been attacked were actively converting people?”"
and then you told that I had not read your posts properly.. well the same goes for you Jo, coz i had not written that the Christians had it coming.. what i had written was
“the people doing the conversions had it coming”..
that does not mean all christians in general.. i had merely meant the ones doing the conversions..
Comment by Jo on September 25, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I totally pity the poor christians who had to die in Karnataka because of the work done by the conversion hungry Evangalists.
.. and because of the Sangh Parivar banking upon the sentiments of Hindus?
I am also totally against the hindu fanatics who go about killing for no reason at all.
Great. That gives us an even space.
But I would also urge you to re-visit your latest blog post, because it gives the impression that Sangh Parivar is being blamed for no reason.
The Pope’s statement was of course an unfortunate one. I do not agree with him at all. He is just concerned about his power because Christianity in the west is on decline and Rome is losing ground. I guess he too is bothered about conversions because so many Catholics (in the countries like Brazil) are bidding good-bye to Catholic church and embracing Protestant/Evangelical belief.
So he is just looking for new grounds to hold on to the power, I guess. The same hunger for power is what drives the Sangh Parivar too. Cash-in on the sentiments of Hindus and hold on to power. That is what BJP and VHP are doing in India.
Their hate speech is so much so that it has reached a level that an ordinary Hindu is asking his Christian counterpart to leave the country. On top of a heating discussion in the previous company where I worked, a colleague (who later became a friend) told me “you Christians look towards and dream about America”. That is the influence of Hindutva doctrine. Funny thing is that he later went on to work in Dubai while I have never left even my home state for work.
In a right-wing supporter’s blog, I was asking the author to write more about Karnatik music – as he seemed to be a music critic from one of his posts – another commentator wrote: “Jo, leave our music alone”. Note that “our music” part. The same lot of people would then say that “Christians are not nationalized and do not mingle with local culture”. Then I gave an example of the Holy Trinity congregation ashram (who first set up their ashram in Chiyyaram and later moved on to Aranattukara in our own district). I told him that they conduct the rituals in the traditional Indian/Hindu way (with arthi, pooja etc). Instead of accepting it as a form of religious harmony, he immediately came to the conclusion that those things are done to convert local people. Just have a look at the place yourself (as Aranattukara is in Thrissur district itself) and see where the ashram is located. It is amidst the Catholic majority area.
So this “nationalized Christian” concept of VHP/RSS is based on their “Hindu Rashtra” politics (which is not to be confused with “Rama Rajya” proposed by Gandhiji).
Just like some of the missionaries, the VHP is also contributing largely to break the communal harmony in India.
Comment by Jo on September 25, 2008 at 10:11 pm
what i had written was “the people doing the conversions had it coming”
Thanks for clarifying. I still have a couple of things to point out along because your statement in full was “regarding the killings, well i guess that the people doing the conversions had it coming”, but that is okay. I leave it for now, or this conversation is going to too long.
Comment by Jo on September 25, 2008 at 10:13 pm
maybe i am not able to express it in such a linguistic talent and in the calm way that you do it jo
A Malayalam medium, 10th grade “gusthi” person like me is no where close to the linguistic talent that you possess, which is why I consider your words with the seriousness it requires.
Comment by Sally on September 26, 2008 at 12:59 am
thanks for the last words of praise Jo.. but seriously I have to compliment you on what you have written..not just in this blog but in all your writings.. It is very very impressive for a person of any medium or grade.. not just for “A Malayalam medium, 10th grade “gusthi” person like me “…
Comment by Martin on September 30, 2008 at 2:05 am
First of all Jo wanted a Converted Christian nation that is India. and that is not good how many continents you wiped out.. you moron christians? How many more you want to do that RSS, Bajrangdal BJP is Indias own party.. even Your ancestors will be Hindus! And you can live as a minority in India do not convert. and dont support Christians alone if you are a so called secularist.ok
Comment by Jo on September 30, 2008 at 2:12 am
Hello Martin, I did not support Christians alone. I supported both Christians and Hindus as I talked about the Missionaries and Hindutvavaadis alike. So would that add up to my “secular credentials”?
And thank you My Lord His Highness Chatrapati Martinji, for granting me permission to live as a minority in India.
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[...] Christians and burning their properties in many parts of the country by cashing-in on the ordinary Hindu’s sentiments against some Missionary tactics. Such extremists need to be dealt with the law of the land. The Catholic Bishops should have urged [...]
Comment by Chacko on March 27, 2009 at 2:55 am
Hi Jo,
Came across your blog, I must compliiment you on your calm, intelligent responses. You have ennuciated what needed to be heard, why does someone evangelizing deserve violence against them? We have Hare Krishnas and other Hindu “missionaries” out there in the West, but I dont’ hear any of the hindutvaadis calling for their deaths. I hear them crowing about “white” (sarcasm here) westerners coming to the Hindu fold, and then turn around and have the nerve to dictate what a Indian in his own land can or cannot believe. It doesn’t matter someone doesn’t like what is being said, that free speech, but when you feel that you have a justification to persecute and kill people for it, and then have the audacity to claim to be the victims, it heinous.
Anyway Jo, enjoy the blog and keep up the great intelligent commentary.
Comment by Jo on March 27, 2009 at 10:24 am
Thanks Chacko.
Comment by SUNIL on November 19, 2009 at 10:38 am
FREEDOM OF CHOOSING RELIGION IS ASSURED BY OUR CONSTITUTION.
BUT SOMETHING ELSE IS HAPPENING FOR YEARS. PREACHING ONES OWN RELIGION AS THE ONLY BEST AND INFLUENCING POOR OR GULLIBLE BY MEANS OF FOREIGN AIDED MISSIONS HAS CREATED THE PROBLEM. TARNISHING OTHER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE ALSO A PART OF PREACHING AND PROPAGANDA IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH THE SUPREMACY OF THE FAITH PREACHED. NOTE THAT IN SUCH CASES, HAPPENING IS NOT CHOOSING RELIGION BUT FORCING FAITH IN HIDDEN MANNER AND BRAINWASHING.
AS AN EXAMPLE OF MISSIONARY WAY OF THINKING :- http://www.salvadorandalissa.wordpress.com :- ABUSE,CONTEMPT AND HIDDEN AGENDAS AGAINST OTHER FAITH ARE CLEARLY AND OPENLY VISIBLE.
WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST FOR OUR SECULAR COUNTRY IS :-
ALLOW FREEDOM OF CHOOSING RELIGION.
DO NOT ALLOW PREACHING OF ANY RELIGION IN PUBLIC . ALSO APPREHEND THE PEOPLE WHO PREACH WHILE DISGUISED AS SOCIAL WORKERS. DO NOT ALLOW TO USE ANY MEDIA FOR PREACHING.
WHOEVER WISHES TO CHANGE THE FAITH SHOULD DO IT BY THEIR OWN BY MEANS OF READING OR UNDERSTANDING THE FAITH AND TO BE LEGALISED AT A GOVT OFFICE.
I DONT KNOW HOW PRACTICAL ARE THESE SUGGESTIONS. I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT OUR COUNTRY SHOULD REMAIN FREE FOR EVERYBODY BUT
NOBODY SHOULD TRESPASS TO OTHER FAITHS.
Comment by SUNIL on November 19, 2009 at 12:58 pm
dear Jo.
i am a hindu
without an intention of offending you let me put these to u.
after quarter century of working outside kerala and india alongwith people of other faiths i have experienced some strange and sad facts for which have not sought any explanation from anybody.
when a controversial subject is discussed, a christian or muslim immediately stands up to defend the culprit from their religion irrespective of the fact that the person involved seems almost guilty to everybody. Also an attempt of sidetracking such cases and discussing vigourously if the person belong to majority, is noted.
when a christian or muslim holds an important post in an organisation they wish to keep their own people as much as possible and support them even though not upto mark.
when a discussion on art or literature or cinema is going on, they keep on praising their own guy of the particular field, more than required as if no one else there.
when cinema is discussed, mohanlal/suresh gopi etc are criticised always as if some personal grudge is there. An attempt to belittle their success is always noted. Such as propagating that their films are flop etc even though fared well.
Criticism on the known people of their faith from any field is not taken in the proper sense and also taken as anti- .
Viewing anything and everything in their communal angle only.
PLEASE REMEMBER, THESE OBSERVATIONS HAVE EXCEPTIONS ALSO, BUT IN LESS NUMBERS.
AND ALSO NOTED THAT SUCH CASES PREVAILS AMONG MAJORITY COMMUNITY . BUT IN LESS NUMBERS.
ALL THESE ARE OBSERVED AMONG THE LOWER AND MIDDLECLASS PEOPLE FROM MINORITY/MAJORITY.
I AM POINTING AT A THING CALLED “SPIRIT” (UNWANTED)
WHY THIS IS HAPPENING? IS IT BECAUSE THE CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS ARE MORE ORGANISED RELIGIOUSLY? OR BECAUSE TAUGHT NARROW/OR BRAINWASHED FROM CHILDHOOD?
WHY SUCH SPIRIT LESS AMONG MAJORITY? IS IT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ORGANISED RELIGIOUSLY OR BECAUSE NOT TAUGHT NARROW/BRAINWASHED FROM CHILDHOOD? (MAY BE THIS IS THE REASON THAT THEY HAVE NO VOTE BANK)
I AM AWARE THAT SAFFRON BRIGADE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO THE SAME AMONG THE MAJORITY FOR YEARS AND NOT SUCCEEDED REMARKABLY YET. BUT THE EFFORT IS GOING ON.
THINK WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO INDIA IF THEY ALSO SUCCEED.
RELIGIOUS POLARISATION IS THE GREATEST CHALLENGE INDIA FACING NOW.
EVERYONE HAS TO THINK AND CORRECT THEMSELVES INSTEAD OF POINTING AT OTHERS.